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Post by mandirei on Feb 15, 2015 23:05:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 2:54:41 GMT
She (Ann Rice) congratulated E.L. James on E.L. James' Twitter site for her success, but that congrats was short lived, or rather backhanded, imo, for in the same tweet AR then peddled her own Sleeping Beauty erotic trilogy. Egos, Egos. Egos all around. My take on the tweet was AR saying "Good for you EL, BUT mine came first and is better. Ego. Egos, Egos, all around.
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Post by imc on Feb 16, 2015 13:22:41 GMT
I think Anne Rice is slightly missing the point, which makes her "rant" right in principle if not in practice. I actually agree with everything she says, and she couldn't have said it much differently, having authored the BEAUTY trilogy.
The point is that no one (at least not the informed critics) told women "NOT to like Fifty Shades because it includes abuse". What were collectively saying is that women (and men) shouldn't hold Fifty Shades as a paragon of love or love story and as portraying something to be desired in a relationship. Or that it actually portrays BDSM. Which is far different than not liking the book. Everyone is free to like trash, smut, erotica of any kind, and be welcome to it, even if it's something that many others find offensive or triggering due to past personal experiences. Just don't lie to yourself and the world by thinking it's something that could and should translate into real life.
Incidentally, notice how Rice's wording implicitly confirms that Fifty Shades contains abuse.
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Post by kristy on Feb 16, 2015 20:53:20 GMT
I can't imagine how any writer can back this book, if not due to the content, because it's so poorly written! I'm morbidly fascinated by the fact that books of this quality are among the fastest selling of all time. One of my favorite articles on this subject (specifically the use of "argh" in sex scenes) is here: www.theawl.com/2012/06/50-shades-of-argh
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bragandbounce
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Ice and snow outside = perfect excuse to stay inside blasting The Who and reading all day, YES,
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Post by bragandbounce on Feb 17, 2015 3:15:56 GMT
Rarely have I ever seen someone miss the point as hard as Anne Rice has in her continuing defence of Fifty Shades. I imagine her covering her ears with her hands going, "La la la laaa I can't hear you!"
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Post by wonderbink on Feb 17, 2015 4:07:40 GMT
I recall that the Sleeping Beauty books were also pretty damn rapey so I'm guessing that Rice's muddled reasoning is that condemning 50SoG for its lack of consent would also condemn her own books.
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Post by mandirei on Feb 17, 2015 6:11:10 GMT
She's admitted she hasn't read it, so how she can claim it's well written really makes me side-eye her own work.
The Beauty Trilogy was never marketed as a date night funtimes or as a "how to." There's her epic fail in comprehension. The level of fantasy is different for those novels.
It's like Lolita being advertised in a magazine as a means to bring family harmony, and from some of the replies Anne Rice has on the fb post, I'm not sure she'd be against that.
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Post by mamawolf on Mar 4, 2015 20:04:52 GMT
The poor quality of the FSoG "series" is alone reason to side-eye a whole lot of the publishing world, authors, and many readers. That garbage could have been condensed into one well-edited book that would still have been rapey, uninformed, and un-consenting, but it would at least have been readable! Every time I hear FSoG I simply cringe... I can't help but feel badly for people who might actually think that pile of steaming shyt is meant to be romantic or some such nonsense... The Beauty trilogy was far beyond my comfort level, but it was ultimately readable. I may not have enjoyed it as much as some others did, but at least when I was reading Ann Rice's work, I wasn't tripping on dangling participles, bad grammar, and a thousand repetitions of vague supposedly sexy tripe!
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Post by Yvonne on Jul 30, 2015 20:02:45 GMT
Doesn't surprise me in the least. Anne Rice is just as bad as E.L. Fudge when it comes to ignoring victims. I myself was being relentlessly harassed and publicly smeared by an author named Yvonne Mason (FYI my name is not actually Yvonne. That's my middle name, and it was my grandma's middle name too, and I refuse to let Mason ruin it!). I left a review of one of Mason's books on Amazon. Granted, it wasn't the kindest review, but it was FAR from intentionally mean. I'm not very good at giving constructive criticism, but that was all I was trying to do, honestly. Then several months later I found her blog and found out that she had taken my REAL name (even though my review was under a pseudonym) and viciously maligned me in her blog. I have noted that she does this to every single person who doesn't give her an ass-kissing review.She calls us all jealous haters, lowlifes and ignoramuses (her 3 favorite insults, apparently). Even when my review said that I believed her writing was too good for self-publishing (yep, she's self-published), she accused me of giving her a backhanded compliment. When I responded to her blog entry about me, things just got worse. I calmly told her that it was inconsiderate to use people's real names while publicly blasting them over a PRIVATE matter, and that it was even more inconsiderate to not even tell us what she was saying about us. I discovered her rant about me on accident. She never told me directly that she had a problem with my review. I suggested discussing things like reasonable adults, and even apologized for my review. Guess what she did? Not only did she ignore every single comment I made on her blog, she also deleted them, and then posted MORE shit about me, touting herself as a victim of harassment, and even going so far as to arrogantly proclaim that she had finally "made it" as an author because she now had a "stalker." I kid you not. Look up Yvonne Mason, and if you dare, give one of her books a less than stellar review, and then keep an eye on her blog. But if you want to avoid making a lifelong enemy, simply scroll through her blog until you see her bitching about a review. Watch as she viciously tears apart even the most well-meaning reviews and accuses the writer of ridiculous charges. Back to Anne Rice. Somebody on Facebook alerted me to the fact that Mason was now bitching about me to Anne Rice, again making herself the martyr and painting me as some kind of monster. When I POLITELY explained the situation to Rice, she blocked me! She just blindly believed Mason, and didn't even give me the dignity of a single reply before blocking me. Anyone with half a brain could tell Mason was lying and I wasn't. Mason used horrendous language in every sentence and sounded like a child tattling, whereas I had spent a great deal of effort to make my own comment civilized and well-represented, despite my increasing anger at Mason. Sorry for the long rant.
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Post by Yvonne on Jul 30, 2015 20:15:26 GMT
Yvonne Mason also became highly offended when I asked her where her books were listed as bestsellers, as she constantly broadcasts herself as a bestselling author. From what I've seen, all of her books are either self-published or indie-published, and I never found her name, or the title of ANY of her books, on any bestseller list, not even on her own publishers' lists. Although she never responded directly, she further ranted about me in her blog, complaining about my ignorance and audacity for calling her a liar, which I *NEVER* said. I simply asked her WHAT list her books were bestsellers on because I had already done the research and couldn't find anything.
It's like asking for directions to someone's house and saying you're having trouble finding the place, and the guy on the other end of the line accuses you of calling him homeless and then hanging up the phone without giving his address. Some of Mason's friends did reply to me, and they all vehemently defended her, telling me she doesn't have to prove anything.
Um yes, yes you do. You canNOT make a self-proclamation like that and then refuse to back it up with evidence. If someone tells me they're a cop or a doctor, you'd damn well better believe it's my constitutional right to demand to see their badge or their PhD.
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Post by Floof on Aug 7, 2015 3:30:50 GMT
Wow, that sounds like a horrible experience. I didn't think authors cared about individual reviews, especially when there can be thousands of reviews for a single book.
I can't speak for everyone else, but my problem with 50 Shades of Grey isn't solely that people enjoy it. I find it highly problematic that people either don't see or excuse the abuse in the book. One girl I work with insists that everything is consensual, because Ana could have left at any time (although with Christian's characterization, I really don't think she COULD have. He owns her work-place, can hunt her down anywhere, and remember the time he thought she broke up with him and he showed up to her house and kept going when she said no? She was embarrassed about her shoes or something, but he can't read her mind. I'm curious how that chapter reads in Grey.) He reminds me of one of my ex boyfriends. I'm just lucky that ex got bored of me, and I was able to see the severity of the situation once I was out of it. I was actually nervous to start dating again because he said he'd kill any other guy I was with. I bet he thought he was being romantic when he said that.
The conversation should not be about how trying things from the book can revitalize your love life. It should be about the warning signs of abuse, and maybe how to roleplay those types of situations safely. I remember a few years ago on the Tyra show a guest (a sex therapist maybe?) was talking about 50 Shades being THE marriage fix, and how letting your partner order your food for you and being blindfolded during sex can be a nice little thing to do sometimes. I wouldn't even mind that, so long as I got to choose what he orders for me. That's fine, but it's not roleplaying in the book. Christian controls her food intake, what she wears, who she sees, and where she goes. That is NOT a healthy relationship. If the book is THE handbook for revitalizing marriages, then it sends the message that if your relationship leaves you feeling lost, confused, used, etc., that's just a phase in the relationship before your partner admits his true feelings to himself and vows to change. It says people are in abusive relationships because they don't show their abusers enough love. If you stick it out, they'll change. Some people will say "It's fiction. People can tell the difference." But can they? They don't see the obvious abuse and manipulation in this book because Ana never outright calls him a monster. Sometimes her thoughts start to drift in that direction, but then she rationalizes everything. I recognized that thought pattern as the same way I managed to believe I was happy with my ex boyfriend for so long. I told everyone how happy I was, and I believed that I was happy. In reality I was lonely, afraid, and angry. The only contact I had with people outside of his immediate family were his friends, and he wouldn't even let me be around them when they were over. I didn't know that I deserved better because I pushed away all of those feelings and grasped on to any straw I could to make things work. If people can't recognize abuse unless it's spelled out for them, how many of these women who deny the abuse in the books are at risk? I don't want that for them. I didn't know I was being abused, and I suspect it's a survival mechanism to go with the flow until you're out of a dangerous situation. Yes, I could have made better decisions, but never did I say "I really want to be raped and manipulated into moving half way across the country by a guy who takes my phone from me any time he thinks I might want to go home," and I'm not sure how much I could have done about a problem I wasn't even able to acknowledge.
That's why we need to talk about the abuse. Just because she doesn't recognize it doesn't mean it's not there. When our brains are telling us that everything is fine, we need to be able to recognize on a conscious level that the way we're being treated is unacceptable. It's so important that we are able to recognize abuse, because no one can drag us out of the house and keep us away. We're the only ones that can save us from that situation once we're in it, and it can be dangerous. Women die when they try to leave. Saying they're okay with what's happening because they stay with the abuser completely ignores the psychology of abuse.
I understand the allure of fictionalized abuse. Some of the most intense emotions come up in an abusive relationship. Those feelings aren't real, though. Those are created by the abuser's manipulative ability. They can make you feel like the most special woman in the world one minute, and like a disgusting piece of trash the next. The higher the highs, the lower the lows. In books, the abuser changes, and the woman gets to feel special because he loved her SO MUCH he changed who he was. Reality doesn't work like that, though. Reality often ends with someone physically and psychologically scarred, or sometimes dead. That's why this is all so dangerous.
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Post by mydogspa on Aug 10, 2015 15:01:37 GMT
Floof, Jenny hasn't covered Grey chapter 8 yet, but Alys Marchand already has at alysbcohen.wordpress.com/2015/07/05/grey-chapter-8-monday-may-23rd-2011-part-2/ And, yes, he receives the 'no' via email, goes to Ana's house, corners her in her room, gives her booze while she is 'wide eyed' and coerces her into sex. Alys calls this RAPE. One of Alys' blog fans theorized that EL most likely was abused sometime in her life and somehow turned the abuse around to where she was aroused by it. Let's face it, she writes about the abuse VERY well and clearly gets into the proper mind of the rapist-stalker-control-freak that Grey truly is. EL does VERY LITTLE research on other things (e.g., to us pilots Grey is NOT a pilot, to the people that live in Portland, things are inconsistent, to a billionaire he's no billionaire etc.) But EL NAILS the mindset of the abuser. Heck, her actions on the movie set with Sam Taylor-Johnson clearly show EL was a control freak. But NO amount of blogging will convince her. So, I think, EL is a lost cause. But that leaves the millions of women who eat up this abuse-is-romantic story. As you suggest, they have NO clue that this is bad. In fact, they SUPPORT EL and the story line. If the story could remain in fantasy-space, that would be fine. Alas, I know it won't. My wife told me to 'let it all die down. In time EL will be forgotten once everyone realizes what a poor writer she is.' Maybe that will happen, maybe not. My biggest fear is that this story can be used as a how-to book on coercion, control, stalking, and rape, and when the perp is put on trial their defense attorney points to these books as 'proof' that because millions of women said this was OK behavior, then the perp-on-trial expected this target victim to comply 'willingly' like Ana. All it would take is one or two members of the jury to buy this crap and the perp walks away scot-free. It's horribly frightening, and I'm not even a woman. I'm open to suggestions on how to prevent this deviant behavior from becoming 'normalized' in our culture. If it does, the damage will last for decades. How can I help?
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Post by Floofy on Aug 10, 2015 19:24:34 GMT
One thing I REALLY want to see is schools teaching the ins and outs of consent: what is consent, what isn't consent, and what is dubious consent. How often do high schoolers pressure each other into having sex? I think they should talk about how to know when you're ready and mature enough to have sex (and I think one sign that you're NOT mature enough is if you don't care about whether or not your partner enjoys it or how they might feel about it afterwards) I read in Psychology Today that people who wait until 19 tend to have longer lasting, more satisfying relationships. I don't think that's because 19 is the magical age of readiness, but I do think that it's around the time most people are emotionally mature enough to be ready. I think what it says is that kids are having sex before they're ready, and it's having lasting consequences on their lives. Ana and Christian are not ready, and their relationship is miserable. Imagine going out and not even being able to look at another person without thinking, "this person is horrible because he/she/they want to steal my man/woman/significant other." I just keep thinking "Why do you people even leave the house?" Teaching consent might not fix anything, but since I see so many people who have no idea what consent REALLY is or don't give a crap if the consent is coerced, I think it might keep at least some of the upcoming generations from that mindset. If I hear ONE MORE PERSON say it's a girl's fault if she gets raped because she didn't have her eye on her drink the entire time she was out, I'm going to lose it. (Maybe she had to use the bathroom. Maybe she trusted the person she was with, because, you know, she shouldn't have to live her life thinking every single person she comes across is a potential rapist. Maybe she has absolutely no reason to think anyone WOULD do that to her, because she's left her drink alone so many times in the past and no one drugged it, so why should she be on alert for something that past experience has taught her is extremely unlikely? Maybe people shouldn't be going around spiking women's drinks, ever think of that??? Ugh... humans. /rant)
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Post by blowpop on Aug 11, 2015 2:59:34 GMT
mydogspa that is entirely possible and a thought I was trying desperately not to go towards. The best way to help prevent is to advocate for proper sex ed including consent in public education. And, when you have the energy for it, to talk to people who like the book and explain WHY it's so bad. About the things wrong in it. Some people will be more than happy to listen. Others....not so much. But it's up to you if it's worth your time and energy. @floofy And in that case I think 50sog is a GREAT learning tool for teaching what isn't consent and what is abuse. Though for high school I'd probably go a little tamer that everyone doesn't already love and think is great. But yeah we definitely need to teach people not to do shitty things to each other.
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Post by eyoqicudona on Apr 19, 2019 18:36:42 GMT
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