ella
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by ella on Apr 15, 2015 9:53:07 GMT
xebi, I understand feeling bad if someone hates or criticizes something you love, but it's not worth getting so upset or actually angry.
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Post by DraconRa on Apr 15, 2015 12:18:28 GMT
I had some time to think about this, on the 1 hour drive home from my parents yesterday.
Seeing my sister liking the book, I realized, it's the woman who don't know that a relationship should based on respect and that it is not ok to be treated like a dumb child.
Who when a man treats them shitty, just shrug it of as normal behavior.
Seeing how well those books sold, apparently way to many woman believe this to be normal.
And, for those who do see that the relationship sucks, some probably want to read about a relationship that is even shittier than their own, to feel better.
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Post by merlinslaugh on Apr 16, 2015 3:27:05 GMT
With reference to books sold as Romance, I do wonder wether to one extent or another, the male characters function as fantasies for readers. Part of that fantasy is the idea of 'perfection', that if you fantasize about a character then ergo he can do no wrong. It's a lot harder, for example, to fantasize about Christian Grey if you acknowledge the downright creepy way he goes after and then treats Ana. If you can pass it off in your mind as all being BDSM or he's a "victim of abuse" it's a lot easier to continue fantasizing. I also think there's a larger point at issue here and it's to do with women's desire and fantasies. Pretty much all the media available is sharply focused through the male gaze (Jen did a great post on this in relation to Outlander and female-centric gaze). There's very little out there that directly caters to women in comparison. Alongside that there's huge cultural baggage attached to women and their desires. I wonder how much this plays into the need to defend a character/object of one's fantasy from criticism. As we saw with criticism of Fifty, a lot of what the mainstream media put out there revolved around women's responses and there was a fair amount of derision around the topic once you picked the commentaries apart. That was one of the challenges for me whenever I've discussed the books; how to pick apart the problems without knocking the women for whom this was their first exposure to erotica/kink. That job would've been far easier if James had produced a better book.
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Post by kristy on Apr 22, 2015 13:25:19 GMT
I've seen very similar attitudes in a discussion of Outlander (*SPOILERS TW*); particularly the scene where Jamie whips Clare with his belt as 'punishment' for her disobedience. During that discussion, most of the contributors found it necessary to defend Jamie and his actions. The old chestnut of 'historical accuracy' was used (although I tend to think 'magic stones guys' demolishes that one) amoungst others. Just curious (really, I don't have a dog in this fight; I've never read or watched Outlander), what's wrong with historical accuracy as a defense for that particular action? I'd love to read the debunking, if you have a link.
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Post by mydogspa on Apr 24, 2015 14:44:43 GMT
I think the notion of "love will overcome all" is pretty common, 50 Shades or not, and it bothers me too. Either they will learn that real relationships are work and play, fun and boredom, laughter and tears...or they will never figure it out and will always feel disappointed because their significant relationship is not like it is in the books/movies/TV. Sorry, I'm late to the party as I've been laughing my head off over Jenny's FSOS recaps. The truly sad thing is that in abusive relationships, the abused either winds up: 1) In a women's shelter 2) In therapy 3) Able to get away from the abuser only to have their subconscious just go out and find another abuser to repeat the cycle 4) In the morgue. And I think that's why a lot of us are upset, namely the latter two. EL has no concept of what the subconscious really is (even though hers shows up on every page of FSOS). I don't know about you guys, but the subconscious to me is the thing that makes the abused go out and find another person to abuse them. Because the person was in an abusive relationship, their subconscious is comfortable (familiar) with it, and their subconscious goes out and is attracted to the person who will repeat the cycle. I'm not a woman, so how or why the subconscious finds the rape/abuse fantasy alluring I'll never know. But I think that's the FS defenders are so ardent and can't see the abuse on the pages for what it is. They're not stupid, not by any sense. But they are blinded by it. And sadly, no matter how much we try and warn them, their subconscious will go out and find someone that will harm them. So they will have to learn their lessons the hard way. I just hope they don't wind up in the morgue. And the hardest thing to do is to learn to tell one's own subconscious to take a flying leap. But one can't do that until they're willing to do so and understand what it takes. So, in the meantime, they'll go and read FSOS and think it's "romantic" and lose years of their lives to recover, if they ever do. Sigh. I had the nicest compliment a few months back when I was coming back form my Mom's funeral. My last flight back home was oversold so I volunteered to give up my seat along with another young woman. While we were waiting to get our hotel vouchers, I was chatting about my wife's projects and her Kickstarter. The young woman asked me how long I was married. I told her fifteen years, plus the three before that when we were dating. Her jaw went a little slack in awe (and it shocked me a bit) when she said "You talk about her like you just met her 2 weeks ago." Yup. Told the subconscious to go fuck itself 18 years ago and I found a person that was better for me.
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xebi
Full Member
Posts: 144
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Post by xebi on Apr 25, 2015 8:15:04 GMT
A lot of the subconscious thing is connected with what we're socialised to believe relationships should be like, and/or what we believe deep down that we deserve. I grew up learning that men are strong and dominant and can boss women around. That love is something that captures us and holds us prisoner, and, crucially, that as a woman my ultimate goal in life must be to hold down a relationship, get married and reproduce. Because of that, I stayed in a lot of unhealthy relationships because I would have felt like a failure if I'd left them, and I ignored a lot of red flags simply because they reminded me of previous partners I'd been blissfully in love with, never mind the fact that they later turned out to be arseholes.
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Post by quinning on May 5, 2015 15:05:48 GMT
I think that deep down, what most women were really attracted to was the lifestyle that Ana got to live.
* Insanely wealthy man - check!
* Completely obsessed with me - check!
*To the point that he always immediately responds to any communication I send - check!
* Does all the thinking and worrying for me - check!
* Has a live-in housekeeper and cook - Double check!
* Has a security detail and driver - check!
* Demands that I not work - check!
* All he wants in return is sexy time - check!
Basically, it took every worry/concern/thought that every woman has had and erased it. Never have to clean the house, plan meals or cook them, no job to worry about, no driving kids around or worrying about getting them to school or activities, don't have to worry about mine or my loved one's safety ever again, he always has time for me, he's always home, I get to fix him with the power of my love, etc.
I think for at least some women, the sexy times written about were arbitrary. It was Ana living a life that we all think we want at some time or another that did it.
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Post by wonderbink on May 5, 2015 16:11:52 GMT
And the thing is, it's not even anything original. The tortured millionaire who learns how to feel thanks to the heroine is a very common romance trope.
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Post by aqiang9292 on Apr 27, 2021 9:15:13 GMT
Can love conquer everything? No, I don't think so. I think sex can conquer everything. A good sex life can make the husband and wife more harmonious. If you can, use sex toys.
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Post by Lalo on May 18, 2021 17:56:00 GMT
This book has a great reputation, but it is actually difficult to match under its prestige. Personally, I think this book is not very readable, and many concepts in the book are worthy of discussion.
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